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		<title>1 Nephi 14:9 &#8211; The Great and Abominable Church- Which One Is It?</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/1-nephi-149-the-great-and-abominable-church-which-one-is-it/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2009/01/24/1-nephi-149-the-great-and-abominable-church-which-one-is-it/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:54:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/?p=578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Is there one evil and corrupt church that is the church of the devil and which one do Mormons think it is? The Book of Mormon passage (1st Nephi 14: 9) that many misunderstand and from which many people (a few Mormons too) think seperates Mormons from everyone else really provides a clearer understanding of [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=578&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p class="MsoNormal">Is there one evil and corrupt church that is the church of the devil and which one do Mormons think it is? The Book of Mormon passage (<a href="http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/14">1st Nephi 14: 9</a>) that many misunderstand and from which many people (a few Mormons too) think seperates Mormons from everyone else really provides a clearer understanding of this doctrine. <span> It says </span>&#8220;<em>Behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.&#8221;</em> Some cite comments made by a few very early church members and leaders, right after the church was founded, as supporting the notion that this is one particular church. They were in error. <strong>The LDS Church does not teach and does not believe that any other established church as we know them is the Great and Abominable  Church</strong>.  Rather we believe the &#8220;church&#8221; spoken of is all the people who fight against God. The next verse helps to clarify. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Verse 10 continues. <em>&#8221; Behold there are save </em><strong><em>two churches only</em></strong><em>; the one is the church of the Lamb of God</em><em>, and the other is the church of the devil;</em><em> </em><em>wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.</em>&#8221; <strong>I suppose some used this verse to suggest that there are only two players &#8211; Mormons and everyone else. But that just isn’t so and never has been.  </strong></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Verse 12 further identifies who the players are. <em>&#8220;I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.&#8221;</em> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Just as is said, the number of the people in God’s church is few and they are on all the face of the earth.<strong> We interpret that as meaning members of God’s Church are all those that seek after Him and seek to have Him guide their lives</strong>. They are many good people who abide by and seek to live their lives according to God’s will in whatever light that has been given them. <strong>These can be and are people in every religious denomination.</strong> The others, members of the Great and Abominable  Church, are those who corrupt, persecute, defame, malign and abuse people with whom they disagree and over whom they seek advantage or dominion. They fight against godliness. They seek to destroy and enslave. In short, they seek the things of this world and reject God.  </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">We believe  the gospel has always been on the earth, But it was only in its fullness for certain periods of time and then only according to how much the people could accept and live. We believe that to hear, know and understand the gospel but not live it, or abide by it, results in condemnation. In many cases, giving the people everything would just set them up to fail. So as an act of a loving father, God only allowed as much as the people could live.  But it would have been available if the people were ready for it. </p>
<p class="MsoNormal">The advent of Jesus Christ restored the full gospel to the earth once again. But because of the wickedness of the people, and the Great and Abominable church, it was lost when the last apostle died. The record of the entire gospel &#8211; which we know was under attack even during the time of Christ and the Apostles &#8211; was further attacked afterward. Eventually, much of the record of the Gospel was removed or distorted and only a part of it remains in the traditional canon today. God had said it would happen but that He would restore it in the end times. The Book of Mormon is that restored Gospel. It was being kept by a separate group of God’s people on the American continent. <span>  </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Within the group of people identified in Nephi as those who are not members of the Great and Abominable  Church, you find the Mormons. While we were still in our pre-mortal life, we took upon ourselves the obligation to take this message to the rest of the world. We understand and accept that some will find a certain resonance with what we claim and will want to learn more. Others, for various reasons, will not.<span>  </span>That doesn’t make them part of the other group though. They may have hardened their hearts and been swayed by the craftiness of men. It is expected.</p>
<p class="MsoNormal">All people learn and are ready to receive in their own time. It may mean those who reject the message in this life will learn of the fullness of the gospel after they pass over to the other side where they will be taught by Christ’s missionaries as it says in<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%205:25&amp;version=9;"> John 5:25</a>. <em>“</em><span><span><em>Verily, verily, I say unto you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.” </em></span></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span><span>So, we Mormons are very much a part of the Church of the Lamb of God just as Methodists, Pentecostals, Baptists, Catholics and Jews and all the other good and godly people of the earth. We also accept that membership in any one church or religious group does not exclude a person from membership in the Great and Abominable Church too. Now I understand some people are going say this is too black and white and that there are many shades of gray. That is true. There are many interpretations of scripture that lead to long and deep discussions. But for a <span style="text-decoration:underline;">short hand version of who Mormons are and how we see ourselves fitting into the world, </span>this I think works – for now.<span>  I invite others to put a finer point on my comments if they wish to do so. I am coachable. </span></span></span></p>
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		<slash:comments>6</slash:comments>
	
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			<media:title type="html">JLFuller</media:title>
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		<title>The Journal of Discourses &#8211; Not an Authorized Source of Mormon Doctrine</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/not-an-authorized-source-of-mormon-doctrinthe-journal-of-discourses-is-it-an-authorized-source-for-mormon-doctrine/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/not-an-authorized-source-of-mormon-doctrinthe-journal-of-discourses-is-it-an-authorized-source-for-mormon-doctrine/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 21:14:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/?p=539</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Just about everyone who questions LDS doctrine cites the JoD as an authentic source of Mormon doctrine but is it a reliable source of Mormon beliefs and practices? No, it is not.<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=539&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just about everyone who questions LDS doctrine cites the JoD as an authorized source of true Mormon doctrine but is it a reliable source of current Mormon beliefs and practices? No, it is not. So I suggest that people who quote from it refrain from saying it is.  If it is important enough for you to comment on, check with an authoritative organ of the Church for an authentic answer to your questions or response to a statement before you publish what you think we believe.  We understand people make mistakes. We all do. Certainly I err and have to revisit something I said to clarify. But deliberately and knowingly misinforming others is not a mistake.  Don&#8217;t get caught up in bearing false witness. </p>
<p>So why isn&#8217;t it authoritative? The JoD was written and printed in Great Britian between 1854 and 1886.  According to the <a href="http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/EoM&amp;CISOPTR=4391&amp;REC=1&amp;CISOSHOW=3835">Encyclopedia of Mormonism</a>, a MacMillian publication edited by religion professors at BYU and some others, <em>&#8220;It served as the printed word of the LDS Church for members who had no access to the Deseret News in Salt Lake City. It most often published sermons of Church leaders which were not always considered to be official statements of doctrine.&#8221; </em> <span style="text-decoration:underline;">At best it is an historic resource which often contains authorized doctrine of the times, but not always. </span></p>
<p>Former BYU Religion Department Dean Dr. Robert Millet  <a href="http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/06/23/address-to-byu-religious-education-faculty-what-is-doctrine/">presented a paper</a> in 2004 to the faculty on Church doctrine. In it he again re-iterated how offical doctrine is determined. In his presentation he said  <span><em><span> &#8221;&#8230;</span></em></span><span><em><span>let me affirm at the outset that I understand implicitly that the right and authority to declare, interpret, and clarify doctrine rest with living apostles and prophets.&#8221; <span style="font-style:normal;">Dr. Millet re-affirmned what LDS members have been told for decades and in fact longer than that.<span><span>  The prophet and the Twelve, when acting in concert, are the sole source of doctrine. Other members have no authority to declare what doctrine is. I should emphasize the <em>living</em> part of his statement.  There are no other authoritative sources. Our recently departed President and prophet, Gorden B. Hinckley said that a living prophet was better than a dead one, and so it is.</span></span></span></span></em></span></p>
<p><span><em><span><span style="font-style:normal;"><span><span>Authoritative sources are Church published teaching resources such as manuals and other printed documents, pamphlets, letters from the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, presentations made at semi annual Conference or statements or proclamations issued by the Church. There are many highly reliable sources to which one can turn to report on Church doctrine such as Church magazines, official Church organ publications and schools such as BYU, presentations by individual General Authorities and other Church leaders. However, unless the message presented originates from one of the sources of authorized doctrine, it cannot be considered authentic. That means personal opinions don&#8217;t count even if they come from a high ranking leader. I encourage readers to read Dr. Millet&#8217;s paper and read his footnotes as a means of confirming what he said. </span></span></span></span></em></span></p>
<p>Now, so I don&#8217;t mix messages here, counsel from our leaders is important. Guidance from our bishops, stake and branch presidents and others is intended to aid us in understanding gospel principles. We believe in taking their guidance and using it as an aid in our lives. When they provide us with guidance they will refer us to where their guidance comes from. We as members and they as leaders note, or should note,  when we state our opinions or those of others and if our message is not clear we hasten to clarify. Teachers are provided with training and teaching aids and manuals along with authoritative sources, from which their message is taken. In all cases, presenters of the message should have spoken with the aid and presense of The Holy Ghost after sincere prayer and supplication to the Lord. We as receivers of their message are admonished to pray for confirmation by the Holy Ghost of what is  said.</p>
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			<media:title type="html">JLFuller</media:title>
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		<title>What if Mormons are right and Catholics and Protestants wrong?</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/what-if-mormons-are-right-and-catholics-and-protestants-wrong/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2009/01/09/what-if-mormons-are-right-and-catholics-and-protestants-wrong/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:58:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/?p=522</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Eamonn McCann, an Irish writer, writes in the Belfast Telegraph in August 2008, concerning the Catholic response to The Church of Jesus Christ&#8217;s of Latter Day Saints&#8217; doctrine of baptism for the dead. The LDS Church has sought the baptism and other records owned by the Catholic Church to use in doing this vicarious work. This practice and discussion [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=522&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Eamonn McCann, an Irish writer, <a href="http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/eamon-mccann/eamonn-mccann-what-if-mormons-are-right-and-catholics-and-protestants-wrong-13955402.html">writes </a>in the Belfast Telegraph in August 2008, concerning the Catholic response to The Church of Jesus Christ&#8217;s of Latter Day Saints&#8217; doctrine of baptism for the dead. The LDS Church has sought the baptism and other records owned by the Catholic Church to use in doing this vicarious work. This practice and discussion has drawn a wave of comments from Catholics and non-Catholics alike. In the article, McCann postulates that baptising babies makes less sense than baptising the dead. Indeeed, the baby is oblivious to the ordinance and requires an adult to act as mouth accepting the ordinance and making lifetime commitments in his stead. The infant has a lifetime to  learn about the complex belief system and then make up his mind as to whether he believes it or not and wishes to continue as a Catholic. The dead however are in a far different situation. I think the reader will find this an interesting article.</p>
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		<title>What Is &#8220;The Body of Christ,&#8221; or Christ’s Universal Church?</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/12/30/what-is-the-body-of-christ-or-christ%e2%80%99s-universal-church/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/12/30/what-is-the-body-of-christ-or-christ%e2%80%99s-universal-church/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Americanism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Baptist]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Biblical searching]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Catholic]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[This is an interesting question. It has been understood by many to mean the collection of all Christian churches. The only &#8220;true&#8221; Church of Jesus Christ is one who has His authority.. the authority which HE gave to the Church HE established.. the Church HE built &#8220;on the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=504&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p style="text-align:left;">This is an interesting question. It has been understood by many to mean the collection of all Christian churches. The only &#8220;true&#8221; Church of Jesus Christ is one who has His authority.. the authority which HE gave to the Church HE established.. the Church HE built &#8220;on the foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone.&#8221; (Eph 2:20) His Church is often referred to in scripture as the Body of Christ. The Church of Jesus Christ is very clearly, according to the Bible, and Early Christian History, a formal organization, composed of a living Body of believers. These believers had specific roles and responsibilities within the Church organization, all of which were equally important, as Paul reiterates in Rom. 12:5 when he quite correctly says, &#8220;So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.&#8221; Elsewhere, Paul reinforces this concept, and documents the various offices and duties within the formal Church organization that Christ founded:</p>
<p><em>&#8220;And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: That we [henceforth] <strong>be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive</strong>;&#8221; (Eph 4:11-14) </em></p>
<p>Modern Christianity resembles the group of children described above.  They have been tossed to and fro, are confused about authentic Christian doctrine, are all too often ill-mannered and misbehave in many instances. It is appropriate to say they resemble those who have been<em><strong>&#8220;carried about with every wind of doctrine&#8221;,</strong></em> to the point where they do not undersstand what the Bible actually says.</p>
<p>Today there are 2,000 or so different Christian denominations and dozens of versions of The Bible, all different, yet claiming to be the inerrant word of God. Bart Ehrman&#8217;s <em>Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why</em> engages  this subject on a level everyone can understand. Ehrman, the chairman of the religious studies department at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill, says the modern bible is a product of centuries of  mistakes and intentional alterations. Readers are encouraged to read this work.</p>
<p>The LDS church, on the other hand, is the true Body of Christ. Christ is the head. He guides the body, which is composed of many integral parts, as Paul taught. With Christ as it&#8217;s head, it can do anything which is ready evident by the fact that it is sweeping the earth. Without Christ, without His authority, without His guidance, without the Body that  He alone established, none of any of the myriad of illinformed bodies will ever bear the fruits of true Christianity.</p>
<p>Even as the essence of a living body is diversity, nobody would work too well without a brain. If it were all simply hundreds of different and discrete parts, without any divine direction, none would function together in any kind of accord. A hand looks radically different from a liver, yet both are part of the same body and can function together if a brain exists to direct them. Historic Christianity is a body without a brain.</p>
<p class="body">This is historic Christianity. For example, a Baptist church looks different from a Methodist Church. They differ in core doctrine, such as soteriology. The Baptist is Calvinistic and the Methodist Arminian. They both believe in Jesus Christ, but yet are not unified in the &#8220;One Faith&#8221; that Paul taught was a prerequisite for the &#8220;Body of Christ&#8221;. To  claim that they both have the same &#8220;DNA code, the Holy Spirit would be to make God a liar. They function under the delusion that Jesus Christ is their head, when they deny that a head even exists. There is no divine head of the modern historic Christian church. Only Jesus is the head of His Church.  His formally organized Church that is built on the foundation of apostles and prophets, whose coming Martin Luther, John Wesley, Roger Williams, and many, many others have been waiting for throughout the centuries.</p>
<p><em>The coments above are taken liberally from <a href="http://www.fairlds.org">www.fairlds.org</a> - often verbatim or edited insignificantly. </em></p>
<p><em><span style="font-size:10pt;" lang="EN"><span style="font-family:Times New Roman;">Note: I found this article on the FairLDS.com website. I edited some of the descriptive words to make it less pugnacious than what the original author presented. But the sum and substance of the message resonated with me. It says some things that I believe are significant and are worth repeating. T<em><span style="font-size:10pt;color:black;" lang="EN">he origianl author said them in an artful and comprehensive manner although in a different style than I would have used &#8211; hence the editing. No atribution was included. </span></em></span></span></em><em></em></p>
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		<title>Mormon view of Others Who Think Differently</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/12/24/mormon-view-of-others-who-think-differently/</link>
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		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:23:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Anti-Mormon]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Book of Mormon]]></category>
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		<category><![CDATA[Historic Christianity from a Mormon Perspective]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Joseph Smith Jr.]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormon History]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Mormonism]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[While in Liberty jail in December 1838 to April 1839 unjustly, Joseph Smith and some fellow leaders of the Church agonized over the fate of their families and the members of the Church. This was a time when the Missouri extermination order was being carried out and thousands of Mormons were being driven from their [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=500&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;">While in Liberty jail in December 1838 to April 1839 unjustly, Joseph Smith and some fellow leaders of the Church agonized over the fate of their families and the members of the Church. This was a time when the Missouri extermination order was being carried out and thousands of Mormons were being driven from their homes by the Missouri militia and others. Joseph had pled for relief from the courts and government officials but none came. It was in the depths of his despair that Joseph begged the Lord for help for the Saints. This section was received at that time. It delineates the anti-Mormons from those who just disagree on theological grounds. It goes a long way in describing how many Mormons feel about those who promote hate and intolerance towards us. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;">Doctrine and Covenants 121 says, starting in verse 16:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><em><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"><span>  </span>16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them. </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><em><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"><span>  </span>17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves. </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><em><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"><span>  </span>18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death— </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><em><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"><span>  </span>19 WO unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house. </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><em><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"><span>  </span>20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><em><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"><span>  </span>21 They shall not have (the) right to the priesthood nor their posterity after them from generation to generation. </span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><a name="22"></a><em><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;">  22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.</span></em></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;">Now some will maintain the LDS Scriptures are a concoction of Joseph Smith and are intended to deceive others. But there are just as many non-Mormons who have read them who are not sure what they read but they doubt the anti-Mormons. Whether these latter day scriptures originated from God as Joseph and the witnesses say, is irrelevant in thisa discussion. Mormons accept them as sacred and we think those that persecute us will be dealt with as you read above. To us it is doctrinal. It is scriptural and comes from God just as assuredly as if one read it in the Bible. It is as much a message from God as if Christ appeared to us in person as spoke it Himself. In fact, we believe He did speak what you read above. These are the words of Jesus Christ. It is our testimony. Differ from us if you will. We expect it. We truly seek to discuss these things with others. We do not believe that having a different opinion is sacrilegious or evil or in any way denigrates our beliefs. Nor does such a different belief automatically and permanatly condemn one to eternal separation from God. What we condemn are the behaviors we see today that continue the hatred, lies, distortions and ill treatment perpetrated against us. It is about <strong><em>behavior</em> </strong>not belief.  </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;">So what can anti-Mormons and others who think differently take from what I write? Do I think they have to change their thinking about the Church, its founder or our current leadership to please Mormons or God? No. I would like my words to have an impact on bad behavior but I recognize my opinion has little weight in those matters. Every person has to decide for themselves how to treat people they disagree with. It is an individual choice. We should be able to expect civil treatment and courteous behavior. All too often that does not happen. But it is what our Savior expects from all of us. </span></p>
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		<title>Is Mormonism A Cult?</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/09/12/is-mormonism-a-cult/</link>
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		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Americanism]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[Anti-Mormons and Evangelicals don&#8217;t like Mormons much and have even re-defined the word cult to fit their own bias. But the definitive arbitor of the mother tongue, The Oxford Englsih Dictionary, says a cult is &#8220;• noun 1 a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. 2 a small religious group regarded [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=481&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anti-Mormons and Evangelicals don&#8217;t like Mormons much and have even re-defined the word cult to fit their own bias. But the definitive arbitor of the mother tongue, The Oxford Englsih Dictionary, says a cult is &#8220;• <strong>noun</strong> <strong>1</strong> a system of religious worship directed towards a particular figure or object. <strong>2</strong> a small religious group regarded as strange or as imposing excessive control over members. <strong>3</strong> something popular or fashionable among a particular section of society. &#8221; <a href="http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/cult?view=uk">http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/cult?view=uk</a></p>
<p>None of those defintions fit The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints but that hasn&#8217;t stopped the anti-Mormons from making up their own version and using it like a club with which to bash Mormons. Now before all the anti-Mormons swell up with indignation and claim that one of the defintions, <em>strange,</em> fits Mormons, I would like to ask acccording to who? Just how strange are Mormons? In what way? You may take exception to some of our doctrine or maybe our history but those are a long way from <em>strange</em> when you consider what a genuine cult is. Parsing a word or two and then claiming it is enough to brand the group in its entirety is taking the defintion out of context. You will be hard pressed to find anything genuinely strange about Mormons. In fact, there may be no other denomination that fits <em>All-American</em> better.</p>
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			<media:title type="html">JLFuller</media:title>
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		<title>Blood Atonement &#8211; What The LDS Church Teaches</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/08/31/blood-atonement-what-the-lds-church-teaches/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/08/31/blood-atonement-what-the-lds-church-teaches/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Aug 2008 19:39:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
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		<description><![CDATA[By virtue of Christ’s&#8217; sacrifice and atonement, all human beings are entitled to be saved from eternal separation from God, Christ and the hosts of heaven. Those who fall outside of the atonement will be cast into outer darkness also known as eternal death or eternal hell, with Satan, his angels and, according to LDS theology, those who committed the unpardonable sin [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=466&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div><span style="font-family:Verdana;"><span style="font-size:11pt;color:#000000;font-family:Arial;">By virtue of Christ’s&#8217; sacrifice and atonement, all human beings are entitled to be saved from eternal separation from God, Christ and the hosts of heaven. Those who fall outside of the atonement will be cast into outer darkness also known as eternal death or eternal hell, with Satan, his angels and, according to LDS theology, those who committed the unpardonable sin of denying the Holy Ghost when one had perfect knowledge. That means they saw Christ or God the Father face-to-face and absolutely knew He existed and yet denied it. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:#000000;font-family:Arial;">Blood atonement was reported to have been a method of repentance for those who had received baptism and the temple ordinances and afterwards committed a serious sin that would take them outside bounds of the atonement. I have read a bit about the practice but it is still unclear on several points which I won&#8217;t get into. Suffice it to say it is not a church practice and never has been. Apparently it was a self initiated process whereby one would ask to have his blood spilled and that he be killed to atone for his sin. Some may want to put a finer point on it but that is the substance of the doctrine. The link below takes you to a more complete discussion of the practice. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:#000000;font-family:Arial;">Some amateur historians and anti-Mormons have used comments made by Brigham Young as evidence that the Church used Blood Atonement as an administrative tool however no legitimate historian has found evidence to support that contention. President Young made comments concerning blood atonement as a rhetorical device to impress upon members the seriousness of such offenses as committing adultery and murder but no one ever has provided proof that it was implemented. Young denied ever implementing the practice. It is not now nor has it ever been Church practice or policy.  </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;color:#000000;font-family:Arial;">The reader may wonder why I would post on this topic given I am unclear on it and it is not a practice of the Church. I do so because people who think they have sufficient knowledge about the practice continue to comment about it as though The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believed in and continued it today. My intent is to participate in the process of piece by piece chipping away at the distortions told about us. Blood atonemnt is one of those distortions. Much has been addressed and the misinformation deliberately spread by our detractors continues to melt away from the public consciousness. But it is only through continually addressing these things that we can defeat them. </span></p>
<p><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p></span></div>
<p> <a href="http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/EoM&amp;CISOPTR=4391&amp;CISOSHOW=5525&amp;REC=1">http://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/cdm4/document.php?CISOROOT=/EoM&amp;CISOPTR=4391&amp;CISOSHOW=5525&amp;REC=1</a></p>
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		<title>Pastoral Behavior &#8211; Not Theology</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/08/25/pastoral-behavior-not-theology/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/08/25/pastoral-behavior-not-theology/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[I am legitimately criticized for having a less than respectful opinion of a major part of traditional Christianity’s pastors. I have formed my opinion based on their behavior not their theology. In my mind, I have a picture of a high school graduate who couldn’t get accepted into a real four year college where he [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=462&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;">I am legitimately criticized for having a less than respectful opinion of a major part of traditional Christianity’s pastors. I have formed my opinion based on their behavior not their theology. In my mind, I have a picture of a high school graduate who couldn’t get accepted into a real four year college where he would be taught how to think and had to settle on the trade school version called bible college where he was taught only what to think. My opinion is based on my experience with many such people. I was a case officer in a government agency and interacted professionally with many of these folks. I have to say it was a mixed bag of experiences and some left me with a very distasteful opinion of their abilities. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;">These less than well educated leaders in the traditional Christian, (read Evangelical) community are the people who created the bulk of anti-Mormon sentiments extant. It takes only a little effort to find out what Mormons actually believe but yet they continue to regurgitate the old, lame, uninformed pap that was thrown at us by their grandfathers. I have said that if these people are bound and determined to hate us anyway they should at least get our theology and practices right. It’s kind of like the cop who tells the father of the perpetrator he arrested that if he is going to sue make sure he gets the name right. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin:0;"><span style="font-size:11pt;font-family:Arial;">Oddly enough, these same denominations are the churches of the slave owners of the Old South, modern segregationists and supporters of the Ku Klux Klan. They have a visceral reaction to Mormons, Jews, Indians, Catholics and others they perceive as undesirables. The Southern Baptists for example, have a laundry list of churches that are OK to hate. They actually teach this crap from the pulpit. They have an online book store with 26 pages of hate filled derogatory offerings for sale to their adherents. <span> </span>It is unsettling to me as an American that so many look to these people for leadership. You will notice that none of what I said was theological in nature but rather are comments on officially sanctioned behaviors. </span></p>
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		<title>&#8220;Mormon Prophets are False&#8221; Says the Bible. Really? Lets See&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/mormon-prophets-are-false-says-the-bible-luke-1616/</link>
		<comments>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/08/23/mormon-prophets-are-false-says-the-bible-luke-1616/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Aug 2008 20:42:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[This has been used  by critics of  LDS theology to prove that there was an end to the need for prophets and therefore modern Mormon prophets are false.<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=453&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong><em> Luke 16:16 -&#8221;There is no need for prophets after John&#8221;. </em></strong> This has been used  by critics of  LDS theology to prove that there was an end to the need for prophets and therefore modern Mormon prophets are false. The KGV version of the passage says<em> </em></p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.&#8221; <a title="16" href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2016:16-17;&amp;version=9;" target="_blank">Luke 16:16.</a></em> </p></blockquote>
<p>What they don&#8217;t tell you is that the John talked about is John The Baptist. <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2011:12-13;&amp;version=9;" target="_blank">Matthew 11:12-13 </a>corrects the critics claims.</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;<span class="sup">12 </span>And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force. <span class="sup">13 </span>For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.</em></p></blockquote>
<p>The <a title="New International Version" href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2011:12-13;&amp;version=31;">New Centry Version </a>makes it a bit clearer<em>.</em></p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;<span class="sup">12</span> Since the time John the Baptist came until now, the kingdom of heaven has been going forward in strength, and people have been trying to take it by force.<span class="sup">13</span> All the prophets and the law of Moses told about what would happen until the time John came.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>So what is <em>The Law </em>and<em> The Prophets</em> talked about in this passage? If our critics are going to use the terms as proof of our falseness they should at least know what the passage says. <em>The Law </em>is a book. <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Gal%203:10;&amp;version=9;">Galations 3:10</a> talks about it.</p>
<blockquote><p><em><span class="sup">10 </span>For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.</em></p></blockquote>
<p><em>The Prophets </em>is a book too.<em> </em><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%207:42;&amp;version=9;">Acts 7:42</a> tells a bit of it.</p>
<blockquote><p><em><span class="sup">42 </span>Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness?</em></p></blockquote>
<p><em>The Law</em> and <em>The Prophets</em> are scriptures read in the synagogue.</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.&#8221; (Luke 24:27)</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;The Law and The Prophets are two of the three main groups of Jewish scriptures, which over time Christians called the &#8220;Old Testament,&#8221; and Jews called the &#8220;Tanakh&#8221; (a.k.a. the Hebrew Bible). The Hebrew Bible is divided into three groups of books: the Law, the Prophets, and the Writings. During the time of Christ, the third group or division was called &#8220;the psalms:  (Raymond Woodworth, </em><a href="http://www.lightplanet.com"><em>www.lightplanet.com</em></a><em>)&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p> </p>
<p><em></em></p>
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		<title>Can&#8217;t We All Just Get Along?</title>
		<link>http://mormonthing.wordpress.com/2008/08/19/cant-we-all-just-get-along/</link>
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		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 14:39:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>JLFuller</dc:creator>
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		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Robert L. Millet and Reverend Gregory C.V. Johnson of Standing Together.org presented a conversation at the LDS Institute of Religion at Arizona State University in on April 25, 2008 in Tempe. They discussed many thngs. Among them was the following. &#8220;Greg Johnson explained about a time when he and Robert Millet were ready to give their event at [...]<img alt="" border="0" src="http://stats.wordpress.com/b.gif?host=mormonthing.wordpress.com&amp;blog=4014690&amp;post=431&amp;subd=mormonthing&amp;ref=&amp;feed=1" width="1" height="1" />]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Robert L. Millet and <span style="font-size:x-small;font-family:Verdana;">Reverend Gregory C.V. Johnson of Standing Together.org presented a conversation at the LDS Institute of Religion at Arizona State University in on April 25, 2008 in Tempe. They discussed many thngs. Among them was the following. </span></p>
<p><em>&#8220;Greg Johnson explained about a time when he and Robert Millet were ready to give their event at an LDS Chapel when the bishop unexpectedly cancelled the event. Greg went to speak with the bishop to ask why he cancelled the event. The bishop began to explain that he served a mission almost 30 year ago and, as Greg explained, he wasn’t treated very well by the Evangelical Christians he had met. The experience had such an effect that he simply didn’t want to expose his congregation, comprised of the youth, to this same experience.  Greg told the bishop that this would not be the same experience. The bishop then agreed.  Greg noted that after the event, the bishop came up to him and thanked him.  Greg remarked that there was healing that was taking place at that moment.&#8221;</em> <a href="http://summatheologica.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/reading-scriptures-with-new-eyes-a-baptist-and-mormon-converse/">http://summatheologica.wordpress.com/2008/06/08/reading-scriptures-with-new-eyes-a-baptist-and-mormon-converse/</a></p>
<p>3 Nephi 11: 29-30 sets out the LDS perspective -</p>
<p><em>29. For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.<br />
 30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.</em></p>
<p>Such things as Millet and Johnson have taken on require a choice. The choice here is to forgo doctrinal differences in order to accomplish real Christian service. Galatians 5:22-23 says it too. <em>&#8220;But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.&#8221; </em></p>
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